In the mock courtroom at the Red Hook Community Justice Center (RHCJC)āa multi-jurisdictional problem-solving court and community center located in the heart of the Red Hook neighborhood of Brooklyn, New Yorkāa group of African-American and Latino/Hispanic teenagers, fourteen to eighteen years of age (although most are fifteen or sixteen), had gathered for a group interview. Each was hoping to earn a place in a nine- to ten-week-long unpaid training program for the Red Hook Youth Court (RHYC)āa juvenile diversion program designed to prevent the formal processing of juvenile offenders (usually first-time offenders) within the juvenile justice system. The teenagers who are selected from the pool of applicants must complete the training program and pass a ābar examā in order to serve as RHYC members, where they will help resolve actual cases involving their peers (e.g., assault, fare evasion, truancy, vandalism).1
All of the teenagers who had come for the group interview had done so voluntarily. In other words, while some of the teenagers may have been encouraged to apply to the training program by a family member, none of the kids in the group interview was there as a result of a court order or pursuant to a threat of punishment from within the criminal justice system.
Ericka, the RHYC coordinator at the time, had put up signs on the walls of the courtroom and had explained to the kids that she would make a statement and that they would have to walk toward and stand by the sign that best represented their position with respect to the statement. The signs, which Ericka had hung in the four corners of the room, read as follows:
Strongly Disagree | Strongly Agree |
Disagree | Agree |
āOK?ā Ericka asked. The kids nodded and murmured their assent. āOK. Graffiti is wrong.ā No one moved. āCāmon,ā implored Ericka, pointing to the signs and corners and gesturing for the kids to pick up their feet.
The kids shuffled around the room. Once they stopped, Ericka began in the āstrongly disagreeā corner. One of the interviewees, Dandre, stated that graffiti is āantagonizingā and that āyou can go to jail for doing it.ā AnotherāRondaāproffered that there is āno reason for taggingā and that āyou could get arrested.ā Neither kid seemed to be standing in the right place because both of these answers seemed indicative of a position that graffiti is, indeed, wrong.
Ericka jotted down their responses and then turned to the kids standing by the ādisagreeā sign. ā[Itās] a way someone expresses himself,ā the first boy, Jayden, said. Unlike Dandre and Rondaās statements, Jaydenās answer seemed appropriate for the place where he was standing. Those near him under the ādisagreeā sign offered similar perspectives: āitās art,ā āitās freedom of expression.ā
Ericka noted these comments and then asked the kids standing by the āagreeā sign why they thought āgraffiti is wrong.ā āI agree itās art, but sometimes what you write can offend people,ā Chandell said. āItās wrongāitās someoneās property,ā the girl next to Chandell replied.
Ericka acknowledged these positions. āSo, why is graffiti wrong?ā Ericka asked the kids standing by the āstrongly agreeā sign. One of the kids volunteered, āGraffiti is art. As long as itās not on someone elseās property.ā Another kid ventured that graffiti was wrong because it āmesses up someoneās stuff.ā And Kirk asserted that āyou can do graffiti in a positive way.ā
Ericka looked around the room to see if anyone else wanted to volunteer an answer. Those who had not spoken looked at their feet or out the window or up at the ceilingāanywhere but in the direction of Ericka.
āNext statement,ā announced Ericka, after a couple of moments. āPeople who commit crimes are bad.ā Again, the kids stood still. āLetās go,ā said Ericka, and gestured as if she were ushering chicks out of a coop. Some of the kids remained in their corners, while others shifted to the ādisagreeā corner of the room and a couple positioned themselves near the āstrongly disagreeā sign.
āWhy?ā asked Ericka when the movement around the room had stopped. Ericka gestured in the direction of the ādisagreeā group.
āBecause it means that what you did is bad, not who you are,ā Kirk explained.
āWhat about you?ā asked Ericka, looking at the girl next to Kirk āWhat do you think?ā
āYeah, Iām with Kirk,ā the girl said. āCommitting a crime is a bad choice. It doesnāt mean youāre a bad person, just that you made a bad choice.ā
āIt doesnāt mean that someone should judge you,ā said Sean, who was standing next to the girl. Ericka frowned, as if trying to understand. Sean must have picked up on Erickaās expression of confusion. Searching for the words, Sean added, āJust because you commit a crime doesnāt mean that they should call you ābadā.ā
Ericka did not respond. She seemed to be weighing Seanās response. Or perhaps she was trying to figure out what he meant. I, too, had initially been confused by Seanās answer. But then it dawned upon me. The first two kids had interpreted the statement, āpeople who commit crimes are bad,ā as a moral equation: āpeople who commit crimesā = āpeople who are bad.ā Thus, the first two kids were trying to draw a distinction between people who are bad and people who do bad things or make bad choices. Sean, on the other hand, was approaching ābadā as a label. For him, āpeople who commit crimes are badā had meant āpeople who commit crimes should be stigmatized as ābad.āā
I must have smiled as I reflected on Seanās interpretation of the statement, for she nodded at me and then said, āOK. Good, Sean.ā Sean breathed a sigh of relief.
āWhoās next?ā Ericka said and, before anyone could answer, pointed to a heavyset boy, Walter, who had seemed completely uninterested in everything that had transpired at the group interview. āKids are dumb; they want to be what they see,ā Walter said rather nonchalantly.
Walter seemed to be referring to kids who imitate the criminal actions of peers or adults. At least that is how I interpreted his statement. But before I could gauge anyone elseās reactionāor do much more than wonder whether Walter considered himself to be a ādumb kidāāthe girl standing next to Walter stated: āIt depends on the crime you commit. You might not have enough money.ā
A couple of people chuckled. The girl, blushing, backpedaled. āNo, I mean, thereās a difference between stealing to raise a kid and stealing because you want somethingāāthe implication being that the former was an acceptable reason for theft, while the latter was not.
āYeah, OK,ā said a couple of kids, and the girl who had just spoken smiled shyly and seemed to relax.
āOther perspectives,ā Ericka called out.
āIt donāt change your personality,ā offered Ronda, who seemed to be standing in between the ādisagreeā and āstrongly disagreeā signs.
Ericka nodded and indicated that she wanted more answers. But I was not sure she had picked up on Rondaās subtle distinction. Some kids had interpreted āpeople who commit crimes are badā as a declarative statement, others as the conditional statementāāif you commit a crime, then you are bad.ā Ronda, on the other hand, was offering a different type of conditional statementāāif you commit a crime, then you will become a bad person.ā It was as if Ronda was disputing the perspective that transgressions have some sort of transformative powerāthat they change a personāthat once a person commits a crime, he/she has gone over the edge (or gone over to the dark side).
āSome people have problems, and they need help, and they make the wrong choices,ā said the next interviewee, a boy standing by the āstrongly disagreeā sign.
āSome people are pushed to do bad things,ā blurted out a girl who stood by the ādisagreeā sign.
āWhat?ā asked Ericka, but it was more āWhat do you mean?ā than a request to repeat the statement or an expression of incredulity.
āLike if a guy is beating up his girl, and she canāt take it anymore, and she shoots him,ā the girl explained.
āOh, shit!ā said one of the taller boys, who then immediately put his hand to his mouth.
āOoooo,ā the collective chorus crowed.
āSorry,ā said the boy.
Ericka smiled and shook her head in mock disapproval. Then, turning back to the girl, said, āThatās domestic violence.ā
āAnybody else?ā Ericka asked.
āThey might need money,ā said Mark, who had been standing near Walter. The two of them had been rolling their eyes at each other in response to various comments from the start.
āYou might need to get something done,ā asserted Ashley. Before I could wonder what āget something doneā meant, the lanky boy who had just swore pounded his fist into his hand. āYeah, beat-down,ā said a voice that I could not identify.
A few kids giggled.
āQuiet, quiet,ā said Ericka. āLast person.ā
āYou could be in the wrong place at the wrong time,ā said a girl.
āOK,ā said Ericka. She had appeared to forget about the few kids standing on the side of the room with the āstrongly agreeā and āagreeā signs. āPeople who commit crimes deserve to be punished.ā
āLetās go around,ā said Ericka, once the kids had settled on their spots. It seemed more like a reminder to herself than an order or a plan.
Ericka asked for a volunteer from the āstrongly agreeā corner. Tavaris raised his hand and stated, āIf they donāt get punished, theyāll keep doing it.ā
āGood,ā Ericka replied. She then nodded at Dandre, who had also raised his hand.
āWhen you do something wrong, you donāt think about it,ā Dandre said. I could not tell whether he meant that people do not think about the consequences of their actionsāthat they do not engage in a costābenefit analysis of committing a crimeāor whether Dandre felt that people can commit crimes without feeling guilt or remorse. Either way, I was having a difficult time figuring out what Dandreās statement had to do with the question of whether people who commit crimes deserve punishment. But Dandre then added, āIf you make your bed, you have to lie in itāāa point that resonated with Ronda, who asserted, āYou should pay your consequences.ā She meant, āyou should pay for the consequences of your actions,ā but everyone seemed to understand.
Ericka nodded and then turned to the āagreeā corner. āLetās get someone from here,ā she said.
April stepped forward and declared, āA whole bunch of people will start doing it over and over.ā
Ericka acknowledged Aprilās response and asked the kids standing in the ādisagreeā corner why they did not feel that people who commit crimes should be punished.
āIt should be based on who you did,ā Precious explained. For a moment, I thought that Precious meant that whether one receives a punishment should depend on whether one has killed one kind of person (the president? a small child? an upstanding citizen?) rather than another (a homeless person?). But Precious clarified that the nature of the crime should determine whether one receives a punishment. I was tempted to inquire whether Precious believed that some crimes should not be punishedāthat perhaps one should simply receive ...