On Safari West
Jeffrey Allen Tucker / 2005
Interview conducted October 6, 2005. Courtesy of the Department of Rare Books, Special Collections and Preservation, University of Rochester River Campus Libraries.
Jeffrey Allen Tucker: Weâre back with John and Lori, October 6. Weâre discussing Safari West now, which is a collection of poems spanning most of your career, John, from 1953 to 1997. Many of these poems were published previously. Before they were published in this volume, they were published in volumes such as the New Black Poetry and in journals and periodicals such as New Letters and Callaloo. This collection, Safari West, was published by a press in Montreal. Iâm going to try the name. Is it âŚ?
John A. Williams & Lori Williams: Hochelaga.
JAT: Hochelaga. How did you come to publish with Hochelaga? It is a press in Montreal.
LW: My niece lives in Montreal. Sheâs a writer and teacher as well, and she is married to a writer and journalist. Heâs an editor at the Montreal Gazette and a publisher, a small publisher. He had published one or two other things, I think, before this. He is an admirer of John and thought it was a pity that he never had a volume of poetry under one roof, in one volume. That was the theme for this, for doing this.
JAT: Was Safari West distributed mainly in Canada? Was it distributed in the United States widely?
LW: Well, I think he used a distributor in the States who didnât do much with it, really, unfortunately, and he didnât have the financial wherewithal to do a real advertising-and-PR kind of thing with it.
JAW: And I didnât have the energy to push it any more than I did or could at that time.
LW: Old Ish gave it another award, Ishmael Reed.
JAW: Right. Yes. I had done another volume of poetry, which I had typed up myself and copied and sold. It was just called Poems. Iâm sure thereâs an old raggedyass copy around here somewhere. Iâve been writing poems for as long as Iâve been writing. Period.
JAT: Itâs interesting that you say that because one of the blurbs on the cover says that poetry is your first love. Is that true?
JAW: Well, yes, because I first learned the magic of poetry as a Sunday school kid. When Easter comes, you get all these little pageants and things, and Thanksgiving, you get these little pageants and things, and Christmas ⌠oh, boy.
JAT: Youâd be reciting Bible verses and popular songs about the holidays and so on.
JAW: Yes.
JAT: Thatâs really interesting. Youâre saying, though, that youâve written poetry as long as youâve written anything?
JAW: Yes.
JAT: Now, this other poetry volume thatâs just entitled Poems, when was that put together?
JAW: I think that was in the fifties and sixties, and it wasâ
LW: I think earlier. Not sixties, certainly; it was before I met you.
JAT: Would we have a copy of that in Rochester, you think?
JAW: I donât know.
LW: There was something in the booklet about it, so it must be.
JAW: Itâs a mimeograph work, and a gray cover sheet with a big P on the front saying âPoems.â
JAT: Is anything from that in Safari West?
JAW: I doubt it very much. That was another life practically.
JAT: Youâve written poetry throughout your career. Any sense as to why poetry doesnât figure more prominently?
JAW: Because Iâm always torn between fiction and poetry. There are periods that I have when I do write poetry, and Iâm sure I have a bundle of stuff that I havenât collated or gone over again to see if I really want to use it. But Iâve got at least one ankle in poetry and will always have one.
JAT: A saying about books and their covers comes to mind, but I do have to ask about the artwork on the cover of Safari West. Itâs a sculpture, and itâs described in the bookâs front matter as a âlifesize head of John A. Williams by James Earl Reid, 1998.â Whoâs James Earl Reid?
LW: As I recall, he had done a bust of Billie Holiday that was in the town square. Where was she born? Do you know? Because I have a feeling that the statue he did of her is in the town square of where she is from.1
JAW: I donât remember anything about that, honey. I canât help you.
LW: Heâd heard John and said he would like to do this bust of him. He started coming up that summer and spent ⌠I forgot how many sessions. He came with that other friend, remember, who used to drive. Anyway, he would sit out there in the backyard, and he was sculpting.
JAT: Did he make a number of trips up here?
LW: Several. We assumed that he would fire it and make several and that we would get one, but apparently, he never was able to raise the money in order to do it. He was sort of a strange guy. We took some pictures of it when it was finished, but as far as we knew, he never did have it cast. It probably disappeared.
JAT: So we donât know where thisâ
LW: No, if itâs even still in existence.
JAT: Was this picture taken here?
LW: Yes.
JAT: Itâs fuzzy. Lori; you took the picture?
LW: I guess so.
JAT: It says you took the picture.
LW: If it says that, I guess I did.
JAT: âCover photograph by Lori Williams.â
LW: My second cover photograph.
JAW: Youâre getting there. [laughs]
JAT: Is photography a hobby for you?
LW: No. [laughs]
JAW: Point and shoot.
JAT: Because itâs a really good picture.
LW: It is.
JAW: No shade, point and shoot.
LW: I also took the picture of John and Dennis thatâs used on the back of the Pryor book. That was up in the country.
JAT: I was surprised. I thought, âWow, I didnât know Lori was a photographer.â
LW: Just a fluke.
JAT: Iâd like to ask you brief questions about some specific poems in the collection. It looks like I have questions about a lot of the poems, more than I thought I had. Letâs start with âSafari Westâ the poem, starting on page 14, from 1969. The speaker of this poem describes being in coastal Nigeria near Popo Channel and the Barracoons in which Africans who were shipped to the New World were held. I assume that the poem is based on your own visit to this location.
JAW: Yes.
JAT: What had brought you to Nigeria?
JAW: I forget now what it was. Was I doing something for Newsweek at that time?
LW: Possibly. I think Nigeria specificallyâit was where Wendell was at that time.
JAW: Thatâs true.
JAT: Wendell?
JAW: Wendell Roye was an old buddy of mine. He was with the USIS.
LW: Some governmental agency based in Lagos.
JAW: How do I want to say this? Itâs a cockeyed title because a safari west obviously was not a safari for Africans, and I hope people understood that.
LW: The irony.
JAW: The irony.
JAT: I appreciate and I take you at your word when you say itâs a cockeyed title, although I think itâs an apt title in some ways. I like Nikki Giovanniâs take on it. Thereâs a blurb from her at the beginning of the book where she says, âYes, this is not my home, only my safari west.â Speaking not only about herself, but African Americans in general. The word safari, I thinkâIâm not completely sure about this, but I think it translates to journey or expedition. Certainly, the expedition of enslaved Africans into the New World was a forced one. It was an imp...